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	<title>Comments on: MoveOn.org Is So Pathetic</title>
	<atom:link href="http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/</link>
	<description>&#62; so much wonderful packaged in such a mess</description>
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		<title>By: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1685</link>
		<dc:creator>joshuadf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1685</guid>
		<description>Good questions of course. I recommend the &quot;10 minutes on two ideas for change&quot; interview with Larry Lessig, from the Economist (I appreciate their semi-outsider perspective in the Democracy in America blog/podcast):

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2008/02/lessig_08.cfm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good questions of course. I recommend the &#8220;10 minutes on two ideas for change&#8221; interview with Larry Lessig, from the Economist (I appreciate their semi-outsider perspective in the Democracy in America blog/podcast):</p>
<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2008/02/lessig_08.cfm" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2008/02/lessig_08.cfm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Staley</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1684</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Staley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 22:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1684</guid>
		<description>Send some cool pix of Malmö, Joshua.

at any rate:

&lt;i&gt;But before we tear down the system, I’d recommend some more education and national dialogue. &lt;/i&gt;

In my view, giving the public a decent education won&#039;t happen until the system is torn down. The system is the reason for the education issues we have now. And the national bifurcated dialogue is a result of a generation of PR from one side (divide and conquer) plus poor public education; plus, certainly our living standards have made us soft (I agree with the &#039;nation of whiners&#039;) which contribute to the lack of hunger or curiosity. And perhaps &lt;a href=&quot;http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4716/is_200003/ai_n17281839&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this condition helps&lt;/a&gt; too.

--------------------

Speaking of talking the talk, I&#039;m speaking at state APA tomorrow (Saturday) - and its a CM credit session. WTF?!? Me? CM credits? Don&#039;t these people know I&#039;m anti-establishment?! Anyway, I&#039;m throwing in Palmer and maybe I can get a sentence in about someone relaxing in Sverige...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Send some cool pix of Malmö, Joshua.</p>
<p>at any rate:</p>
<p><i>But before we tear down the system, I’d recommend some more education and national dialogue. </i></p>
<p>In my view, giving the public a decent education won&#8217;t happen until the system is torn down. The system is the reason for the education issues we have now. And the national bifurcated dialogue is a result of a generation of PR from one side (divide and conquer) plus poor public education; plus, certainly our living standards have made us soft (I agree with the &#8216;nation of whiners&#8217;) which contribute to the lack of hunger or curiosity. And perhaps <a href="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4716/is_200003/ai_n17281839" rel="nofollow">this condition helps</a> too.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>Speaking of talking the talk, I&#8217;m speaking at state APA tomorrow (Saturday) &#8211; and its a CM credit session. WTF?!? Me? CM credits? Don&#8217;t these people know I&#8217;m anti-establishment?! Anyway, I&#8217;m throwing in Palmer and maybe I can get a sentence in about someone relaxing in Sverige&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1683</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1683</guid>
		<description>Thanks, all. Agreed, overall. Some thoughts, though:

joshuadf: Which lobbyists are you referring to? I imagine it&#039;s the oil or HMOs, right? Couldn&#039;t agree more. But what about the ones that got the ADA passed? Or the ones that try to argue for passing welfare reform? I kind of like their causes, so... As your website says, though, &quot;Congresspeople should be beholden to citizens.&quot; What does that really mean? Aren&#039;t they already? They are voted in and out of office by their citizenry every few years. So are you saying that beyond the popular vote, they should also hold a referendum for every decision they make? That&#039;s sounding suspiciously like the Seattle way, which has been much bemoaned on this very blog. Isn&#039;t the public&#039;s endorsement already implicit in the office itself? Here&#039;s my thought: it&#039;s people who vote dumbasses into office, and its people that need to be held accountable. Blaming the system is like me blaming Jack Daniels for my drinking problem... tempting, but there are probably other issues I need to look at... ummmm... ok, later.

Jeffersonlian democracy and the Founding Fathers: Dan, I totally respect that you want to bring it back to the roots. You&#039;re one of the few people I know that actually walks the talk. I like the Jeffersonian model for its staunch belief that everyone should be educated (which will bring me to my final point). But I don&#039;t agree that we should be strictly bound to the U.S. constitution (um, Scalia anyone?), nor do I believe that we should revert back to an agrarian culture. It&#039;s not possible, and it&#039;s not desirable. States rights? Maybe, but I happen to be writing this in Sweden, where the &quot;federal government&quot; is as strong as it gets, and all is much better than where I call home.

For me, the end result is this: there are issues with our democracy, there are things the absolutely need to be dealt with. But before we tear down the system, I&#039;d recommend some more education and national dialogue. An educated  citizenry is the best antidote to stupid government. Conversely, a stupid citizenry will undermine any government, whether Jeffersonian, socialist, or corporatocratic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, all. Agreed, overall. Some thoughts, though:</p>
<p>joshuadf: Which lobbyists are you referring to? I imagine it&#8217;s the oil or HMOs, right? Couldn&#8217;t agree more. But what about the ones that got the ADA passed? Or the ones that try to argue for passing welfare reform? I kind of like their causes, so&#8230; As your website says, though, &#8220;Congresspeople should be beholden to citizens.&#8221; What does that really mean? Aren&#8217;t they already? They are voted in and out of office by their citizenry every few years. So are you saying that beyond the popular vote, they should also hold a referendum for every decision they make? That&#8217;s sounding suspiciously like the Seattle way, which has been much bemoaned on this very blog. Isn&#8217;t the public&#8217;s endorsement already implicit in the office itself? Here&#8217;s my thought: it&#8217;s people who vote dumbasses into office, and its people that need to be held accountable. Blaming the system is like me blaming Jack Daniels for my drinking problem&#8230; tempting, but there are probably other issues I need to look at&#8230; ummmm&#8230; ok, later.</p>
<p>Jeffersonlian democracy and the Founding Fathers: Dan, I totally respect that you want to bring it back to the roots. You&#8217;re one of the few people I know that actually walks the talk. I like the Jeffersonian model for its staunch belief that everyone should be educated (which will bring me to my final point). But I don&#8217;t agree that we should be strictly bound to the U.S. constitution (um, Scalia anyone?), nor do I believe that we should revert back to an agrarian culture. It&#8217;s not possible, and it&#8217;s not desirable. States rights? Maybe, but I happen to be writing this in Sweden, where the &#8220;federal government&#8221; is as strong as it gets, and all is much better than where I call home.</p>
<p>For me, the end result is this: there are issues with our democracy, there are things the absolutely need to be dealt with. But before we tear down the system, I&#8217;d recommend some more education and national dialogue. An educated  citizenry is the best antidote to stupid government. Conversely, a stupid citizenry will undermine any government, whether Jeffersonian, socialist, or corporatocratic.</p>
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		<title>By: old timer</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1682</link>
		<dc:creator>old timer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1682</guid>
		<description>There is a lot that could be done to start the return of individual liberty.
1.  We individuals are the ones granted inalienable rights by our creator, not Exxon, nor Goldman Sachs. Corporations should not have the same rights as individuals.
A corporation has no mind nor mouth.  Corporations are not entitled to &#039;free speech&#039;.
A corporation has no death, save bankruptcy, and therefore has no moral perspective or limits to it&#039;s actions, save those that will rapaciously add to it&#039;s ability to grow.
A corporation should be a second class legal entity below that of human.

2. Reform of campaign finance.  No one gets to the race unless they pass the gatekeepers who are those with the money.

3. Develop a true multi-party political system.  We have one party now, with two illusory segments.

But nothing will be done until there is a general recognition of the fact that the political system we have boxed ourselves into is now merely a tool for those with access to take from those who do not.
The system is dysfunctional.
It&#039;s broken.
Until we all call it, it will remain so.
Too many are invested with the &#039;race&#039; and do not see that the fix is already in.

We were given a great gift by our founding fathers, but the system they gave us has become encrusted with the dried slobber of greedy interpretation.
We need to look to the real meaning of the words that are the contract we Americans have with our government, and we need to enforce that contract.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot that could be done to start the return of individual liberty.<br />
1.  We individuals are the ones granted inalienable rights by our creator, not Exxon, nor Goldman Sachs. Corporations should not have the same rights as individuals.<br />
A corporation has no mind nor mouth.  Corporations are not entitled to &#8216;free speech&#8217;.<br />
A corporation has no death, save bankruptcy, and therefore has no moral perspective or limits to it&#8217;s actions, save those that will rapaciously add to it&#8217;s ability to grow.<br />
A corporation should be a second class legal entity below that of human.</p>
<p>2. Reform of campaign finance.  No one gets to the race unless they pass the gatekeepers who are those with the money.</p>
<p>3. Develop a true multi-party political system.  We have one party now, with two illusory segments.</p>
<p>But nothing will be done until there is a general recognition of the fact that the political system we have boxed ourselves into is now merely a tool for those with access to take from those who do not.<br />
The system is dysfunctional.<br />
It&#8217;s broken.<br />
Until we all call it, it will remain so.<br />
Too many are invested with the &#8216;race&#8217; and do not see that the fix is already in.</p>
<p>We were given a great gift by our founding fathers, but the system they gave us has become encrusted with the dried slobber of greedy interpretation.<br />
We need to look to the real meaning of the words that are the contract we Americans have with our government, and we need to enforce that contract.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Staley</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1681</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Staley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1681</guid>
		<description>Joshua, I&#039;d be happy to change our system into a representative democracy where corporations are not a person - repealing Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific RR.

This results in making our country something similar to the Jeffersonian democratic model, albeit with fewer people being yeoperson farmers (due to lack of arable land). Is it too late to return to what our Founding Fathers sought to make? I don&#039;t know - is it? We see what happens when national leaders try to give land back to original owners from the landed gentry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua, I&#8217;d be happy to change our system into a representative democracy where corporations are not a person &#8211; repealing Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific RR.</p>
<p>This results in making our country something similar to the Jeffersonian democratic model, albeit with fewer people being yeoperson farmers (due to lack of arable land). Is it too late to return to what our Founding Fathers sought to make? I don&#8217;t know &#8211; is it? We see what happens when national leaders try to give land back to original owners from the landed gentry.</p>
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		<title>By: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1680</link>
		<dc:creator>joshuadf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1680</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a start:
http://change-congress.org/about/

1. No money from lobbyists or PACs
2. Vote to end earmarks
3. Support reform to increase Congressional transparency
4. Support publicly-financed campaigns

I&#039;m not claiming it&#039;s anything more than a baby step, but wouldn&#039;t that be better than a hail-mary new constitution movement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a start:<br />
<a href="http://change-congress.org/about/" rel="nofollow">http://change-congress.org/about/</a></p>
<p>1. No money from lobbyists or PACs<br />
2. Vote to end earmarks<br />
3. Support reform to increase Congressional transparency<br />
4. Support publicly-financed campaigns</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not claiming it&#8217;s anything more than a baby step, but wouldn&#8217;t that be better than a hail-mary new constitution movement?</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1673</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1673</guid>
		<description>Ok, I&#039;ve got to call Dan and Old Timer out on this one. Change the system into... what? I&#039;m all open ears on this one. I keep hearing (and saying) that we need to change the underlying system. But what do we change to? I&#039;ve got a few ideas for, say, zoning, but when it comes to our &quot;corporatocracy&quot;, I&#039;m at a loss. Anyone got a proposal?

Let me provide a thought: perhaps we don&#039;t really want change. John Forrester from Cornell has pointed out rather pointedly in his research that protesting community groups are often most threatened when solutions are offered to that which they are challenging. Takes away their identity, their reason to exist. If we change, would we be robbed of our arguments, our kvetching, our angst... our BLOGS? Who would we be then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I&#8217;ve got to call Dan and Old Timer out on this one. Change the system into&#8230; what? I&#8217;m all open ears on this one. I keep hearing (and saying) that we need to change the underlying system. But what do we change to? I&#8217;ve got a few ideas for, say, zoning, but when it comes to our &#8220;corporatocracy&#8221;, I&#8217;m at a loss. Anyone got a proposal?</p>
<p>Let me provide a thought: perhaps we don&#8217;t really want change. John Forrester from Cornell has pointed out rather pointedly in his research that protesting community groups are often most threatened when solutions are offered to that which they are challenging. Takes away their identity, their reason to exist. If we change, would we be robbed of our arguments, our kvetching, our angst&#8230; our BLOGS? Who would we be then?</p>
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		<title>By: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1679</link>
		<dc:creator>joshuadf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 05:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1679</guid>
		<description>Obama can win this the same way he won the primary: talk to youth. He doesn&#039;t have more ideas than Gore or Kerry, but he&#039;ll get the big turnout if he just talks about things the 18-30 demographic cares about.

By the way, eight years ago I thought Bush was harmless and only moderately preferred Gore to Nader, so we can all be wrong. No one saw 9/11 (and with it the PATRIOT Act) coming. But McCain is a madman who&#039;s picking fights with Iran and Russia. On the other hand, I just read Suess&#039; _The Butter Battle_ to my daughter and that gives some perspective. I guess at least he&#039;s not proposing to put a nuclear arsenal in space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama can win this the same way he won the primary: talk to youth. He doesn&#8217;t have more ideas than Gore or Kerry, but he&#8217;ll get the big turnout if he just talks about things the 18-30 demographic cares about.</p>
<p>By the way, eight years ago I thought Bush was harmless and only moderately preferred Gore to Nader, so we can all be wrong. No one saw 9/11 (and with it the PATRIOT Act) coming. But McCain is a madman who&#8217;s picking fights with Iran and Russia. On the other hand, I just read Suess&#8217; _The Butter Battle_ to my daughter and that gives some perspective. I guess at least he&#8217;s not proposing to put a nuclear arsenal in space.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Staley</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1678</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Staley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1678</guid>
		<description>I agree with old timer and that nothing major will change until we change the corporatocracy and worship of capital in this country (quick, everyone: how much did the DOW go up today?).

We will have incremental change and occasional larger change (as long as the bottom line can be maintained), but Ike&#039;s military-industrial complex has hold of the media and information dissemination. I&#039;m listening to NPR now and here&#039;s this white woman saying Obama is a Muslim. Sheesh. We just had a large firing here of a bunch of Somalis. Unbelievable.

When the people lead, the leaders will follow, is what old timer is saying. Change the entire system, not the suits that sit in the well-upholstered chairs that the system provides. Listen to some Rage Against The Machine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with old timer and that nothing major will change until we change the corporatocracy and worship of capital in this country (quick, everyone: how much did the DOW go up today?).</p>
<p>We will have incremental change and occasional larger change (as long as the bottom line can be maintained), but Ike&#8217;s military-industrial complex has hold of the media and information dissemination. I&#8217;m listening to NPR now and here&#8217;s this white woman saying Obama is a Muslim. Sheesh. We just had a large firing here of a bunch of Somalis. Unbelievable.</p>
<p>When the people lead, the leaders will follow, is what old timer is saying. Change the entire system, not the suits that sit in the well-upholstered chairs that the system provides. Listen to some Rage Against The Machine.</p>
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		<title>By: BrianK</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/comment-page-1/#comment-1677</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/09/10/moveonorg-is-so-pathetic/#comment-1677</guid>
		<description>Obama should hire Jon Stewart as campaign media director. He is doing what no one else in the media seems willing to do. As an example, here he displays the right-winger&#039;s flagrant hypocrisy so clearly even a five-year-old could understand it:

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama should hire Jon Stewart as campaign media director. He is doing what no one else in the media seems willing to do. As an example, here he displays the right-winger&#8217;s flagrant hypocrisy so clearly even a five-year-old could understand it:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086" rel="nofollow">http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086</a></p>
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