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	<title>Comments on: A Little Bird Told Me</title>
	<atom:link href="http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/</link>
	<description>&#62; so much wonderful packaged in such a mess</description>
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		<title>By: JoshMahar</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2047</link>
		<dc:creator>JoshMahar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2047</guid>
		<description>I would hesitate to compare to Portland since their waterfront is designed more like Myrtle Edwards, with grass and trees and such. This would function differently as more of a shopping boulevard, say, like the Rambles in Barcelona (we can only hope!).

Tony says it beautifully, and I agree. Option 3 is probably the most versatile and the most pedestrian friendly overall. I agree with Dan that the bottom of the harbor steps won&#039;t be as delightful, but something like a raised pedestrian walkway could help to prioritize the pedestrian there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would hesitate to compare to Portland since their waterfront is designed more like Myrtle Edwards, with grass and trees and such. This would function differently as more of a shopping boulevard, say, like the Rambles in Barcelona (we can only hope!).</p>
<p>Tony says it beautifully, and I agree. Option 3 is probably the most versatile and the most pedestrian friendly overall. I agree with Dan that the bottom of the harbor steps won&#8217;t be as delightful, but something like a raised pedestrian walkway could help to prioritize the pedestrian there.</p>
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		<title>By: Sabina Pade</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2050</link>
		<dc:creator>Sabina Pade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2050</guid>
		<description>Well argued by Tony, above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well argued by Tony, above.</p>
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		<title>By: zilfondel</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2049</link>
		<dc:creator>zilfondel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2049</guid>
		<description>Portland waterfront park is 200&#039; wide on average, plus an additional 70&#039; for the width of Naito Parkway adjacent to the park, to the buildings that line the street.  So you have about 270&#039; from the buildings to the river.

There are places where it is wider and narrower as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Portland waterfront park is 200&#8242; wide on average, plus an additional 70&#8242; for the width of Naito Parkway adjacent to the park, to the buildings that line the street.  So you have about 270&#8242; from the buildings to the river.</p>
<p>There are places where it is wider and narrower as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2048</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2048</guid>
		<description>&#039;C&#039; is my favorite. Thoughts:

1.) Crossing. The key to reconnecting downtown with the waterfront is the ease of pedestrian crossing. We all agree on this. I believe that two 3-lane streets presents a more pleasant crossing than the 4-lane, which is actually a 5-lane when you include the median. with C, you basically cross 40 feet, then have a break while you&#039;re walking a block and then cross another 40 feet, as opposed to B where you have to cross about 70 feet all at once. Crossing such a wide gulf is unpleasant.

Think about it, which street is easier to cross: 5th AND 4th downtown or Denny?

In addition to making the crossing distance shorter, the fact that all of the traffic is coming from one direction also makes crossing less intimidating. You don&#039;t have to look both ways, just one way and you can keep an eye on all of the potential incoming traffic while you cross.

2.) I actually think Western could benefit from a bit more traffic, hard as that may be to believe. Western seems empty, and frankly a little scary to me. It&#039;s a dark street and the fact that there is so little pedestrian and vehicle traffic makes a person feel alone in a city, which is unpleasant. If there are vehicles driving by to be potential witnesses, I feel I&#039;m less likely to be mugged.

Additional traffic could potentially also benefit retail along Western. Because it is out of the way, people don&#039;t just wander down Western Ave the way they wander down 1st ave. Retail needs large volumes of people passing by in order to scoop up a couple as they pass. Those volumes could be pedestrian or vehicle (as long as there&#039;s parking, which it looks like there is). If all the traffic gets moved out to Alaskan while western is left with so little, all the prime retail will move out to Alaskan, and Western will
remain dark and underdeveloped.

3.) Couplets are more flexible for the future. My dream, would be to build the 6-lane couplet today, and then in 10 or 20 years (maybe sooner) turn two of those lanes into transit only lanes, either for streetcar or buses, or if we&#039;ve already build grade separated transit elsewhere, turn those lanes into wider sidewalks (like we did on pine street) or more on street parking, which would help the retail.

Dropping two vehicle lanes from option C would amount to a 33% drop in capacity, while dropping dropping two lanes from A or B would amount to a 50% decrease. You all may think this is unrealistic, but I think we have a much better shot at a 33% reduction than a 50% reduction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;C&#8217; is my favorite. Thoughts:</p>
<p>1.) Crossing. The key to reconnecting downtown with the waterfront is the ease of pedestrian crossing. We all agree on this. I believe that two 3-lane streets presents a more pleasant crossing than the 4-lane, which is actually a 5-lane when you include the median. with C, you basically cross 40 feet, then have a break while you&#8217;re walking a block and then cross another 40 feet, as opposed to B where you have to cross about 70 feet all at once. Crossing such a wide gulf is unpleasant.</p>
<p>Think about it, which street is easier to cross: 5th AND 4th downtown or Denny?</p>
<p>In addition to making the crossing distance shorter, the fact that all of the traffic is coming from one direction also makes crossing less intimidating. You don&#8217;t have to look both ways, just one way and you can keep an eye on all of the potential incoming traffic while you cross.</p>
<p>2.) I actually think Western could benefit from a bit more traffic, hard as that may be to believe. Western seems empty, and frankly a little scary to me. It&#8217;s a dark street and the fact that there is so little pedestrian and vehicle traffic makes a person feel alone in a city, which is unpleasant. If there are vehicles driving by to be potential witnesses, I feel I&#8217;m less likely to be mugged.</p>
<p>Additional traffic could potentially also benefit retail along Western. Because it is out of the way, people don&#8217;t just wander down Western Ave the way they wander down 1st ave. Retail needs large volumes of people passing by in order to scoop up a couple as they pass. Those volumes could be pedestrian or vehicle (as long as there&#8217;s parking, which it looks like there is). If all the traffic gets moved out to Alaskan while western is left with so little, all the prime retail will move out to Alaskan, and Western will<br />
remain dark and underdeveloped.</p>
<p>3.) Couplets are more flexible for the future. My dream, would be to build the 6-lane couplet today, and then in 10 or 20 years (maybe sooner) turn two of those lanes into transit only lanes, either for streetcar or buses, or if we&#8217;ve already build grade separated transit elsewhere, turn those lanes into wider sidewalks (like we did on pine street) or more on street parking, which would help the retail.</p>
<p>Dropping two vehicle lanes from option C would amount to a 33% drop in capacity, while dropping dropping two lanes from A or B would amount to a 50% decrease. You all may think this is unrealistic, but I think we have a much better shot at a 33% reduction than a 50% reduction.</p>
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		<title>By: cale</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2046</link>
		<dc:creator>cale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2046</guid>
		<description>How does 104&#039;-114&#039; feet compare to say Portland&#039;s waterfront park?

The mockups are terrible and if it ended up looking anything like that it would be a gigantic waste of space. However, I can easily imagine it being much more interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does 104&#8242;-114&#8242; feet compare to say Portland&#8217;s waterfront park?</p>
<p>The mockups are terrible and if it ended up looking anything like that it would be a gigantic waste of space. However, I can easily imagine it being much more interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: KeithR</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2045</link>
		<dc:creator>KeithR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2045</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;m coming around to B as well.  I was picturing vast extra green space with C versus B, but 30&#039; of extra bricked sidewalk isn&#039;t worth messing with Western.

It&#039;s tough to go off their obviously rough mockups.  If there was something cool that you could do with the waterfront in 104&#039;-114&#039; feet as opposed to 76&#039;-86&#039;, then I&#039;m still a C fan.  Otherwise B is fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;m coming around to B as well.  I was picturing vast extra green space with C versus B, but 30&#8242; of extra bricked sidewalk isn&#8217;t worth messing with Western.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s tough to go off their obviously rough mockups.  If there was something cool that you could do with the waterfront in 104&#8242;-114&#8242; feet as opposed to 76&#8242;-86&#8242;, then I&#8217;m still a C fan.  Otherwise B is fine.</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2044</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2044</guid>
		<description>I suppose this is a minor concern in the big scheme of things, but Option C would entail moving a historic brick building (building where Il Bocchachino (SP?)is located) slightly to the west in order to provide enough right-of-way for the northbound couplet. I personally think a 3-lane one-way street would pretty much destroy the character of a chunk of Pioneer Square and Western Ave, but perhaps that is the price to pay for more room on the waterfront.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose this is a minor concern in the big scheme of things, but Option C would entail moving a historic brick building (building where Il Bocchachino (SP?)is located) slightly to the west in order to provide enough right-of-way for the northbound couplet. I personally think a 3-lane one-way street would pretty much destroy the character of a chunk of Pioneer Square and Western Ave, but perhaps that is the price to pay for more room on the waterfront.</p>
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		<title>By: JoshMahar</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2042</link>
		<dc:creator>JoshMahar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 03:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2042</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Keo makes a strong point, why not option &#039;C&#039; with the added transit additions. I also think C would do well to spread the cars out a little more and cutting down on their waterfront presence which would be really really cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Keo makes a strong point, why not option &#8216;C&#8217; with the added transit additions. I also think C would do well to spread the cars out a little more and cutting down on their waterfront presence which would be really really cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Keo</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2043</link>
		<dc:creator>Keo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 03:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2043</guid>
		<description>I’m definitely leaning towards the couplet of Alaskan/Western (Option ‘C’).

This could very well be our last chance to have any sort of central park in downtown. This gives the waterfront the most open space. Plus, it has more lanes than the surface boulevard options (A&amp;B) and spreads the traffic out which would reduce congestion and noise on the waterfront.

Second choice would be the cut and cover tunnel (option ‘G’). This opens up a huge amount of open space in Belltown, which is almost as good as open space on the waterfront. Plus, it provides the bypass our overly-subsidized port so clamors for.

Third would be option ‘B’, obviously for the excellent transit improvements. Although, I can’t for the life of me see why they wouldn’t include those with ‘C’.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m definitely leaning towards the couplet of Alaskan/Western (Option ‘C’).</p>
<p>This could very well be our last chance to have any sort of central park in downtown. This gives the waterfront the most open space. Plus, it has more lanes than the surface boulevard options (A&amp;B) and spreads the traffic out which would reduce congestion and noise on the waterfront.</p>
<p>Second choice would be the cut and cover tunnel (option ‘G’). This opens up a huge amount of open space in Belltown, which is almost as good as open space on the waterfront. Plus, it provides the bypass our overly-subsidized port so clamors for.</p>
<p>Third would be option ‘B’, obviously for the excellent transit improvements. Although, I can’t for the life of me see why they wouldn’t include those with ‘C’.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt the Engineer</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/comment-page-1/#comment-2041</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt the Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2008/11/19/a-little-bird-told-me/#comment-2041</guid>
		<description>B is now my favorite, because of streetcars and because I&#039;m afraid C leaves a bit too much open space, which could go badly if not designed well (&lt;a href=&quot;http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3038/3028386586_292753b31b.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this rendering&lt;/a&gt; is what turned me off).  But I&#039;d be much happier with C than any of the others.

(oh, and [Dan], your attention has been requested in the comments &lt;a href=&quot;http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/17/new-look-pioneer-square-station/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>B is now my favorite, because of streetcars and because I&#8217;m afraid C leaves a bit too much open space, which could go badly if not designed well (<a href="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3038/3028386586_292753b31b.jpg" rel="nofollow">this rendering</a> is what turned me off).  But I&#8217;d be much happier with C than any of the others.</p>
<p>(oh, and [Dan], your attention has been requested in the comments <a href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/17/new-look-pioneer-square-station/" rel="nofollow">here</a>)</p>
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