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	<title>Comments on: Why The Tunnel Is So Wrong</title>
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	<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/</link>
	<description>&#62; so much wonderful packaged in such a mess</description>
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		<title>By: Don&#8217;t Worry, It&#8217;s Probably Nothing &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-90697</link>
		<dc:creator>Don&#8217;t Worry, It&#8217;s Probably Nothing &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-90697</guid>
		<description>[...] the bigger question this all circles back to is this: Why are we taking on the huge risk and expense of a piece of mega-infrastructure we don&#8217;t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the bigger question this all circles back to is this: Why are we taking on the huge risk and expense of a piece of mega-infrastructure we don&#8217;t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tunnel Resurfacing &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-75772</link>
		<dc:creator>Tunnel Resurfacing &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-75772</guid>
		<description>[...] idea that the tunnel is a waste of money is not new, and as the debate is not over, this 2006 study on the &#8220;No-replacement Option&#8221; is good [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] idea that the tunnel is a waste of money is not new, and as the debate is not over, this 2006 study on the &#8220;No-replacement Option&#8221; is good [...]</p>
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		<title>By: One Issue &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-31754</link>
		<dc:creator>One Issue &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-31754</guid>
		<description>[...] a McGinn supporter and one who also believes that the deep-bore tunnel is a spectacularly bad idea, my response to those who would  seem to be compromising their values in a broad sense by letting [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a McGinn supporter and one who also believes that the deep-bore tunnel is a spectacularly bad idea, my response to those who would  seem to be compromising their values in a broad sense by letting [...]</p>
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		<title>By: I Skim The Seattle Times And Crosscut So You Don&#8217;t Have To &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-2475</link>
		<dc:creator>I Skim The Seattle Times And Crosscut So You Don&#8217;t Have To &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 19:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-2475</guid>
		<description>[...] that I&#8217;m not biased, I also didn&#8217;t read Mike O&#8217;Brien&#8217;s Crosscut piece on what&#8217;s wrong with the deep-bore tunnel even though I got about 72 facebook updates telling me I should.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that I&#8217;m not biased, I also didn&#8217;t read Mike O&#8217;Brien&#8217;s Crosscut piece on what&#8217;s wrong with the deep-bore tunnel even though I got about 72 facebook updates telling me I should.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike O&#8217;Brien For Seattle City Council Position 8 &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-2476</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike O&#8217;Brien For Seattle City Council Position 8 &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 06:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-2476</guid>
		<description>[...] For me, this is the easiest choice out of all the races.  Among the reasons:  Mike O&#8217;Brien has been consistent in his support for an integrated surface/transit solution as opposed to the deep bore tunnel. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] For me, this is the easiest choice out of all the races.  Among the reasons:  Mike O&#8217;Brien has been consistent in his support for an integrated surface/transit solution as opposed to the deep bore tunnel. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Deep-Bore Tunnel Is A Done Deal (Just Like The Monorail Was) &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-2474</link>
		<dc:creator>The Deep-Bore Tunnel Is A Done Deal (Just Like The Monorail Was) &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 08:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-2474</guid>
		<description>[...] the record, here&#8217;s why whiners like me and McGinn won&#8217;t shut up, and aren&#8217;t ready to concede that the tunnel is a done [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the record, here&#8217;s why whiners like me and McGinn won&#8217;t shut up, and aren&#8217;t ready to concede that the tunnel is a done [...]</p>
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		<title>By: reality based commute</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-2439</link>
		<dc:creator>reality based commute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 07:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-2439</guid>
		<description>For now, yes.  My answer is based on both political pragmatism and following the money.  Task one was/is to defeat any idea of another elevated viaduct on our waterfront.  This is no small task with Speaker Chopp and our state legislature.

Most people and their elected officials in this region believe that we need to continue to provide an alternative to I-5 through downtown.  Most of the people who don&#039;t believe we need to address this need rarely use the viaduct because of where they live.  A strictly surface/transit option simply doesn&#039;t have the votes in the leg.  Suburban Puget Sound legislators will oppose it because of fears that it will impact I-5 and I-405.  Our goofy ass Speaker of the House, Frank Chopp, will try to kill it as well.  The state will move to defund the surface/transit option and shift that money to 520 and tell Seattle to pay for it themselves.

I believe in the duality of all things.  To believe that the surface option, or a tunnel, or an elevated has no pluses and minuses is silly.  You have articulated many of the negatives about a tunnel.  But a surface option in a region with limited transit to speak of will by necessity mean heavy surface traffic on the waterfront.  The transit is a promise that will take years to realize, will continue to struggle with sustained funding, and will be susceptible to political struggles like the 40-40-20 Metro formula for new service.

A tunnel allows us to separate the pass through traffic from the downtown traffic which makes the surface element work much better as this region almost doubles in size.  Yes, it is a lot of money, but Seattle shouldn&#039;t assume that money is to be spent where they please.

I get people&#039;s desire to radically change how we live for climate change reasons and those of urban design.  But I also get that personal transport vehicles will continue to grow in numbers in this region.  Each year we register almost 80 more cars per day than the previous year in the Puget Sound region.  I want us to make the change from a auto-dominated city to a transit-dominated city like more mature cities have done.  But we have just begun to build high-capacity transit and it will take a long time before we really build a network.  If we build this tunnel now we will have it as a fixed resource which can be converted to rail in the future.

Under this deal the state pays for the tunnel which you don&#039;t want.  If there is no tunnel, the money goes away.  The city pays for the surface improvements, and the county pays for more transit.  Unless there are compelling reasons why Seattle should give away even more of our state gas tax dollars to build roads elsewhere, I fail to see what is wrong with this deal.  I remain unconvinced that it will negatively affect urban design or climate change to the degree opponents suggest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For now, yes.  My answer is based on both political pragmatism and following the money.  Task one was/is to defeat any idea of another elevated viaduct on our waterfront.  This is no small task with Speaker Chopp and our state legislature.</p>
<p>Most people and their elected officials in this region believe that we need to continue to provide an alternative to I-5 through downtown.  Most of the people who don&#8217;t believe we need to address this need rarely use the viaduct because of where they live.  A strictly surface/transit option simply doesn&#8217;t have the votes in the leg.  Suburban Puget Sound legislators will oppose it because of fears that it will impact I-5 and I-405.  Our goofy ass Speaker of the House, Frank Chopp, will try to kill it as well.  The state will move to defund the surface/transit option and shift that money to 520 and tell Seattle to pay for it themselves.</p>
<p>I believe in the duality of all things.  To believe that the surface option, or a tunnel, or an elevated has no pluses and minuses is silly.  You have articulated many of the negatives about a tunnel.  But a surface option in a region with limited transit to speak of will by necessity mean heavy surface traffic on the waterfront.  The transit is a promise that will take years to realize, will continue to struggle with sustained funding, and will be susceptible to political struggles like the 40-40-20 Metro formula for new service.</p>
<p>A tunnel allows us to separate the pass through traffic from the downtown traffic which makes the surface element work much better as this region almost doubles in size.  Yes, it is a lot of money, but Seattle shouldn&#8217;t assume that money is to be spent where they please.</p>
<p>I get people&#8217;s desire to radically change how we live for climate change reasons and those of urban design.  But I also get that personal transport vehicles will continue to grow in numbers in this region.  Each year we register almost 80 more cars per day than the previous year in the Puget Sound region.  I want us to make the change from a auto-dominated city to a transit-dominated city like more mature cities have done.  But we have just begun to build high-capacity transit and it will take a long time before we really build a network.  If we build this tunnel now we will have it as a fixed resource which can be converted to rail in the future.</p>
<p>Under this deal the state pays for the tunnel which you don&#8217;t want.  If there is no tunnel, the money goes away.  The city pays for the surface improvements, and the county pays for more transit.  Unless there are compelling reasons why Seattle should give away even more of our state gas tax dollars to build roads elsewhere, I fail to see what is wrong with this deal.  I remain unconvinced that it will negatively affect urban design or climate change to the degree opponents suggest.</p>
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		<title>By: dan bertolet</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-2438</link>
		<dc:creator>dan bertolet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 06:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-2438</guid>
		<description>Hey there RBC @33 and 34, you make a lot of interesting points, but you avoid making a commitment to what you think should be done.  Do you believe that the deep-bore tunnel is the best solution for the future of Seattle, yes or no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey there RBC @33 and 34, you make a lot of interesting points, but you avoid making a commitment to what you think should be done.  Do you believe that the deep-bore tunnel is the best solution for the future of Seattle, yes or no?</p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-2466</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-2466</guid>
		<description>With apologies to Joshuadf, I was actually trying to distinguish between second-world economies like China and India, and third-world economies like the very poor countries of Africa.  When oil prices spiked the very poorest countries couldn&#039;t afford it and dropped out of the market; with the worldwide recession the poorest economies aren&#039;t making enough money to buy oil.

China and India are so very large, however, that their per capita consumption could be a fraction of ours and still hugely significant.

Hopefully, the leadership of China, India, Russia, and other large countries will turn sharply away from the automobile-centered development we experienced.  If and when they do, we can&#039;t expect them to have much sympathy for our addiction to cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With apologies to Joshuadf, I was actually trying to distinguish between second-world economies like China and India, and third-world economies like the very poor countries of Africa.  When oil prices spiked the very poorest countries couldn&#8217;t afford it and dropped out of the market; with the worldwide recession the poorest economies aren&#8217;t making enough money to buy oil.</p>
<p>China and India are so very large, however, that their per capita consumption could be a fraction of ours and still hugely significant.</p>
<p>Hopefully, the leadership of China, India, Russia, and other large countries will turn sharply away from the automobile-centered development we experienced.  If and when they do, we can&#8217;t expect them to have much sympathy for our addiction to cars.</p>
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		<title>By: reality based commute</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-2470</link>
		<dc:creator>reality based commute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/01/23/why-the-tunnel-is-so-wrong/#comment-2470</guid>
		<description>Now lets look at a few of the arguments Dan lays out.

--The reason the &quot;surface option cartel&quot; is subdued is that they all realize how close we were to getting another elevated viaduct on our waterfront.  The status quo is always the default option.

--The viaduct stakeholders group was not blown off.  If you actually attended the meetings you would know that all but one elevated guy supported surface/transit with meaningful study of a tunnel.  And that over half of the stakeholders group would probably endorse the current proposal.

--The Seattle Transit Blog post on the tunnel encouraging sprawl is a bunch of hooey.  90% of all traffic on the viaduct is from Seattle or neighboring cities to Seattle or neighboring cities.  Show me in a meaningful way how it actually breaks down the hub and spoke transit patterns that encourage transit in a city where half of downtown workers already use transit.  Anyone who actually uses the viaduct will tell you that it is the yellow pages freeway.  All those UPS trucks, plumbers, Amazon Fresh drivers, etc. that you depend on every day need a way to get from their offices in Ballard, SODO, South Park, etc. to places all over the city.

--Sightline is fine, but the figure on the cost per peak hour trip is laughable.  To arbitrarily decide to make this the measure of the true value of an investment and deliver a figure is certainly not a meaningful exercise.  I agree that we are building too much capacity still for peak hour traffic, but one doesn&#039;t have to rely on bullshit instead of the kind of meaningful analysis the stakeholder group engaged in.

--Climate change--Agreed, roads suck.  Cars pollute.  From an environmental standpoint the whole auto/personal transport idea is a disaster for urban planning, the planet and everything else.  But the big leap many make is to assert that building a tunnel will encourage more auto usage in the future or that we have any proven formula for meaningfully measuring future GHC emissions.

--The State Legislature will only fund a viaduct replacement scheme that they view as credible.  The leg is a far more conservative body than you or I.  They would naturally be inclined to ram an ugly elevated viaduct down our throats in the name of interstate commerce.  Instead the deal is a much smaller tunnel, significant surface improvements to downtown Seattle as the region doubles in population over the next 20-30 years, and the promise of a more stable funding base to maintain and expand bus service in the future.

All I am saying, is this is not a simple political decision.  There are a lot of stakeholders in a community and any result must include business and developer input.  To ignore them and to ignore the political climate of the state and region may not be a wise strategy to achieve our long term goals.

Sorry to babble on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now lets look at a few of the arguments Dan lays out.</p>
<p>&#8211;The reason the &#8220;surface option cartel&#8221; is subdued is that they all realize how close we were to getting another elevated viaduct on our waterfront.  The status quo is always the default option.</p>
<p>&#8211;The viaduct stakeholders group was not blown off.  If you actually attended the meetings you would know that all but one elevated guy supported surface/transit with meaningful study of a tunnel.  And that over half of the stakeholders group would probably endorse the current proposal.</p>
<p>&#8211;The Seattle Transit Blog post on the tunnel encouraging sprawl is a bunch of hooey.  90% of all traffic on the viaduct is from Seattle or neighboring cities to Seattle or neighboring cities.  Show me in a meaningful way how it actually breaks down the hub and spoke transit patterns that encourage transit in a city where half of downtown workers already use transit.  Anyone who actually uses the viaduct will tell you that it is the yellow pages freeway.  All those UPS trucks, plumbers, Amazon Fresh drivers, etc. that you depend on every day need a way to get from their offices in Ballard, SODO, South Park, etc. to places all over the city.</p>
<p>&#8211;Sightline is fine, but the figure on the cost per peak hour trip is laughable.  To arbitrarily decide to make this the measure of the true value of an investment and deliver a figure is certainly not a meaningful exercise.  I agree that we are building too much capacity still for peak hour traffic, but one doesn&#8217;t have to rely on bullshit instead of the kind of meaningful analysis the stakeholder group engaged in.</p>
<p>&#8211;Climate change&#8211;Agreed, roads suck.  Cars pollute.  From an environmental standpoint the whole auto/personal transport idea is a disaster for urban planning, the planet and everything else.  But the big leap many make is to assert that building a tunnel will encourage more auto usage in the future or that we have any proven formula for meaningfully measuring future GHC emissions.</p>
<p>&#8211;The State Legislature will only fund a viaduct replacement scheme that they view as credible.  The leg is a far more conservative body than you or I.  They would naturally be inclined to ram an ugly elevated viaduct down our throats in the name of interstate commerce.  Instead the deal is a much smaller tunnel, significant surface improvements to downtown Seattle as the region doubles in population over the next 20-30 years, and the promise of a more stable funding base to maintain and expand bus service in the future.</p>
<p>All I am saying, is this is not a simple political decision.  There are a lot of stakeholders in a community and any result must include business and developer input.  To ignore them and to ignore the political climate of the state and region may not be a wise strategy to achieve our long term goals.</p>
<p>Sorry to babble on.</p>
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