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	<title>Comments on: Exclusive Offer:  2-Mile Deep-Bore Tunnel Absolutely Free!  Limited Time Offer!  Order Now!</title>
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	<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/</link>
	<description>&#62; so much wonderful packaged in such a mess</description>
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		<title>By: Still Not Digging The Tunnel &#124; citytank</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-631986</link>
		<dc:creator>Still Not Digging The Tunnel &#124; citytank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2011 06:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-631986</guid>
		<description>[...] 08.13.09: Exclusive Offer: 2-mile Deep-bore Tunnel Absolutely Free! Limited Time Offer! Order Now! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 08.13.09: Exclusive Offer: 2-mile Deep-bore Tunnel Absolutely Free! Limited Time Offer! Order Now! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the other way around.&#8221; &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-18975</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the other way around.&#8221; &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-18975</guid>
		<description>[...] but why?  In large part because some union workers stand to make a pile of money building the deep-bore tunnel.  A quintessential example of putting short term economic gain before long term ecological [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] but why?  In large part because some union workers stand to make a pile of money building the deep-bore tunnel.  A quintessential example of putting short term economic gain before long term ecological [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Different Campaign Strategies &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-12270</link>
		<dc:creator>Different Campaign Strategies &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-12270</guid>
		<description>[...] best hope is that enough people will be so afraid of the prospect of a world without a deep-bore tunnel that they will overlook his embarrassing lack of civic experience.  Conversely,  McGinn&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] best hope is that enough people will be so afraid of the prospect of a world without a deep-bore tunnel that they will overlook his embarrassing lack of civic experience.  Conversely,  McGinn&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Wells</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-4323</link>
		<dc:creator>Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 19:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-4323</guid>
		<description>Seattle&#039;s hilly and narrow topography is a critical concern affecting its transportation system design. For example, east/west uphill/downhill traffic should not be encouraged with questionably-located access ramps to SR-99 and I-5. It was not a good idea to build the Seneca and Columbia ramps to SR-99. Access ramps from I-5 dump traffic in congested heaps onto Seattle streets and for traffic leaving downtown, traffic similarly forms reckless hoards of motor vehicles.

Seattle&#039;s hills suggest transit should be oriented as much east/west as north/south. A &#039;grid&#039; transit pattern that requires transfers between N/S and E/W bus lines would simplify E/W routes and allow them to run more frequently between the waterfront (or 1st Ave) and First Hill, Capitol Hill and South Lake Union.

Such a grid transit system would encourage walking as well as discourage E/W vehicle traffic. Who enjoys a trudge up those damn hills?

McGinn seems to understand this aspect of transportation planning best. The Deep-bore tunnel isn&#039;t the best option. That honor goes to WsDOT&#039;s Scenario &#039;G&#039;, the &quot;4-lane&quot; Cut-n-Cover because it maintains the Elliott/Western access ramps, costs hundreds of million less, and has less disruption to the Waterfront District and normal SR-99 traffic than the &quot;6-lane&quot; version rejected by voters in March 2007. The 4-lane version allows the AWV to remain in place for most of the tunnel construction.

I&#039;ll bet McGinn will put the 4-lane Cut-n-Cover tunnel option back on the table if he&#039;s elected. One more thing a tunnel does better than a gridlocked Alaskan Way surface boulevard: there&#039;s less runoff water polluted with vehicle emissions ending up in Puget Sound. Vote for McGinn - He&#039;s the non-establishment candidate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seattle&#8217;s hilly and narrow topography is a critical concern affecting its transportation system design. For example, east/west uphill/downhill traffic should not be encouraged with questionably-located access ramps to SR-99 and I-5. It was not a good idea to build the Seneca and Columbia ramps to SR-99. Access ramps from I-5 dump traffic in congested heaps onto Seattle streets and for traffic leaving downtown, traffic similarly forms reckless hoards of motor vehicles.</p>
<p>Seattle&#8217;s hills suggest transit should be oriented as much east/west as north/south. A &#8216;grid&#8217; transit pattern that requires transfers between N/S and E/W bus lines would simplify E/W routes and allow them to run more frequently between the waterfront (or 1st Ave) and First Hill, Capitol Hill and South Lake Union.</p>
<p>Such a grid transit system would encourage walking as well as discourage E/W vehicle traffic. Who enjoys a trudge up those damn hills?</p>
<p>McGinn seems to understand this aspect of transportation planning best. The Deep-bore tunnel isn&#8217;t the best option. That honor goes to WsDOT&#8217;s Scenario &#8216;G&#8217;, the &#8220;4-lane&#8221; Cut-n-Cover because it maintains the Elliott/Western access ramps, costs hundreds of million less, and has less disruption to the Waterfront District and normal SR-99 traffic than the &#8220;6-lane&#8221; version rejected by voters in March 2007. The 4-lane version allows the AWV to remain in place for most of the tunnel construction.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll bet McGinn will put the 4-lane Cut-n-Cover tunnel option back on the table if he&#8217;s elected. One more thing a tunnel does better than a gridlocked Alaskan Way surface boulevard: there&#8217;s less runoff water polluted with vehicle emissions ending up in Puget Sound. Vote for McGinn &#8211; He&#8217;s the non-establishment candidate.</p>
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		<title>By: William of Ockham</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-4322</link>
		<dc:creator>William of Ockham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 01:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-4322</guid>
		<description>Has anyone seen my Razor? I know I left it around here somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone seen my Razor? I know I left it around here somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-4310</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 22:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-4310</guid>
		<description>We should do what the Stakeholder Advisory Committee recommended: Throughput investments to I-5 combined with transit investments and surface street improvements, or a rebuild of an elevated structure without the downtown exits. (http://obrienforseattle.com/2009/05/public-voice-ignored-in-viaduct-decision/).

The take-or-leave-it approach is what got us two stadiums along with the loss of the Sonics. If you assigned a committee to the project (or anyone with any common sense) they would conclude that what would have made the most sense is a Stadium for both baseball and football (and soccer) along with improvements to Key Arena (where the Sonics would still be paying). Instead, we paid way more money and still lost a team.

I would like it if someone would ask Mallahan if he would be willing to reject the committee&#039;s recommendation. Mallahan (unlike Nickels) implies he is a consensus builder and listens to the experts on his team. Is that really the case? Would he, like Nickels, be willing to reject a committee&#039;s recommendations in favor of his own idea? People are addressing this issue as if no one has studied it, or worse, that the results of the study was to recommend a tunnel. It is exactly the opposite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should do what the Stakeholder Advisory Committee recommended: Throughput investments to I-5 combined with transit investments and surface street improvements, or a rebuild of an elevated structure without the downtown exits. (<a href="http://obrienforseattle.com/2009/05/public-voice-ignored-in-viaduct-decision/" rel="nofollow">http://obrienforseattle.com/2009/05/public-voice-ignored-in-viaduct-decision/</a>).</p>
<p>The take-or-leave-it approach is what got us two stadiums along with the loss of the Sonics. If you assigned a committee to the project (or anyone with any common sense) they would conclude that what would have made the most sense is a Stadium for both baseball and football (and soccer) along with improvements to Key Arena (where the Sonics would still be paying). Instead, we paid way more money and still lost a team.</p>
<p>I would like it if someone would ask Mallahan if he would be willing to reject the committee&#8217;s recommendation. Mallahan (unlike Nickels) implies he is a consensus builder and listens to the experts on his team. Is that really the case? Would he, like Nickels, be willing to reject a committee&#8217;s recommendations in favor of his own idea? People are addressing this issue as if no one has studied it, or worse, that the results of the study was to recommend a tunnel. It is exactly the opposite.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill LaBorde</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-4311</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill LaBorde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-4311</guid>
		<description>Keo and JDF:

Sadly, it is not just a simple majority of the people that would be required to allow gas tax to be spent on a light rail on the corridor.  The restriction that says that gas tax can be spent for &quot;highway purposes&quot; only is imbedded in the 18th Amendment to the state constitution.  That amendment was passed by the legislature and people during WWII as part of a public revolt against expenditure of gas tax for general government uses.  At the time, virtually all public investment in transportation was on the highway side, so the amendment was also limited to highways.  Public funding of transit was just not part of public consciousness at that time, so the exclusion was incidental.

Because the highway purposes restriction is a constitutional amendment, it can only be changed with a 2/3 vote in each chamber of the legislature and then passed by the voters with a simple majority vote.  I don&#039;t see any problem getting a majority of voters to approve such an amendment.  But the 2/3 vote at this point would be virtually impossible.  The state legislature and WSDOT are only interested in building highways and think it&#039;s fine to leave transit as a local responsibility (just as Dino Rossi said it should be).

Dan&#039;s right.  It&#039;s stupid that there&#039;s a good chance the legislature would likely take its money and go home if the city used its powers to kill the tunnel deal.  But the legislature hates Seattle.  Hell, even many of Seattle&#039;s own reps hate Seattle.  And, in the climate context, I&#039;m not sure this tunnel is as bad as some of the other projects the legislature would love to spend the money on.  Remember, this tunnel is 4-lanes, replacing six on the viaduct now.  It will likely be tolled.  And there is no widening of I-5.

Don&#039;t get me wrong, I think the tunnel is a waste of money, but I think the seemingly inevitable cost overruns are more likely to kill the project in a way that allows Seattle (and the climate) to come out a winner than Seattle telling an already hostile state legislature to go fuck itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keo and JDF:</p>
<p>Sadly, it is not just a simple majority of the people that would be required to allow gas tax to be spent on a light rail on the corridor.  The restriction that says that gas tax can be spent for &#8220;highway purposes&#8221; only is imbedded in the 18th Amendment to the state constitution.  That amendment was passed by the legislature and people during WWII as part of a public revolt against expenditure of gas tax for general government uses.  At the time, virtually all public investment in transportation was on the highway side, so the amendment was also limited to highways.  Public funding of transit was just not part of public consciousness at that time, so the exclusion was incidental.</p>
<p>Because the highway purposes restriction is a constitutional amendment, it can only be changed with a 2/3 vote in each chamber of the legislature and then passed by the voters with a simple majority vote.  I don&#8217;t see any problem getting a majority of voters to approve such an amendment.  But the 2/3 vote at this point would be virtually impossible.  The state legislature and WSDOT are only interested in building highways and think it&#8217;s fine to leave transit as a local responsibility (just as Dino Rossi said it should be).</p>
<p>Dan&#8217;s right.  It&#8217;s stupid that there&#8217;s a good chance the legislature would likely take its money and go home if the city used its powers to kill the tunnel deal.  But the legislature hates Seattle.  Hell, even many of Seattle&#8217;s own reps hate Seattle.  And, in the climate context, I&#8217;m not sure this tunnel is as bad as some of the other projects the legislature would love to spend the money on.  Remember, this tunnel is 4-lanes, replacing six on the viaduct now.  It will likely be tolled.  And there is no widening of I-5.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I think the tunnel is a waste of money, but I think the seemingly inevitable cost overruns are more likely to kill the project in a way that allows Seattle (and the climate) to come out a winner than Seattle telling an already hostile state legislature to go fuck itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Daniel Franklin</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-4312</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Daniel Franklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 04:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-4312</guid>
		<description>Well, there&#039;s an overwhelming amount of information at
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/solution.htm
This has been studied for many many years.

In the &quot;Travel model results presentation&quot;, page 18: &quot;Currently 63% of traffic on SR 99 is through traffic.&quot; (i.e., 37% uses downtown and so would not be served by the tunnel).

On tolls, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Public/Templates/Projects/ProjectSpecifics.aspx?NRMODE=Published&amp;NRNODEGUID={5C2D7A86-DF80-40C1-BCA0-1B32B8C9D966}&amp;NRORIGINALURL=%2Fprojects%2Ftolls&amp;NRCACHEHINT=Guest&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;WSDOT Tolling Analysis&lt;/a&gt; website is full of graphs of different effects of pricing and so on (the 2002 SR-99 report&#039;s &quot;Demand Effects&quot; starts on page 37--note that at that time they were talking about maybe $90m from tolling, not $400m!) The estimate is about 20% traffic reduction, which combined as I said makes most trips that currently use the viaduct “disappear.” No $1.9b tunnel needed. :)

I also have misgivings about McGinn&#039;s commitment to transit, but honestly at this point I&#039;m more willing to give him a chance than Nickels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there&#8217;s an overwhelming amount of information at<br />
<a href="http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/solution.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/solution.htm</a><br />
This has been studied for many many years.</p>
<p>In the &#8220;Travel model results presentation&#8221;, page 18: &#8220;Currently 63% of traffic on SR 99 is through traffic.&#8221; (i.e., 37% uses downtown and so would not be served by the tunnel).</p>
<p>On tolls, the <a href="http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Public/Templates/Projects/ProjectSpecifics.aspx?NRMODE=Published&amp;NRNODEGUID={5C2D7A86-DF80-40C1-BCA0-1B32B8C9D966}&amp;NRORIGINALURL=%2Fprojects%2Ftolls&amp;NRCACHEHINT=Guest" rel="nofollow">WSDOT Tolling Analysis</a> website is full of graphs of different effects of pricing and so on (the 2002 SR-99 report&#8217;s &#8220;Demand Effects&#8221; starts on page 37&#8211;note that at that time they were talking about maybe $90m from tolling, not $400m!) The estimate is about 20% traffic reduction, which combined as I said makes most trips that currently use the viaduct “disappear.” No $1.9b tunnel needed. :)</p>
<p>I also have misgivings about McGinn&#8217;s commitment to transit, but honestly at this point I&#8217;m more willing to give him a chance than Nickels.</p>
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		<title>By: Keo</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-4313</link>
		<dc:creator>Keo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 02:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-4313</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d be interested to see those figures from the state. I do hope McGinn goes on to the general election. I hope this debate continues and we see if he truly has a comprehensive vision to do something about the way mobility in this city works.

It worries me when he talks about ditching the streetcar as part of this effort saying that streetcar and light rail expansion in the city are undesirable until &quot;we improve transportation financing regionally and statewide.&quot; How is he going to accomplish this as mayor? Why not build the streetcar now if we can? Streetcars have been shown to have a transformative effect on the way people move about cities: more people ride them than do equivalent bus routes, and they are cheaper to operate in the long term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be interested to see those figures from the state. I do hope McGinn goes on to the general election. I hope this debate continues and we see if he truly has a comprehensive vision to do something about the way mobility in this city works.</p>
<p>It worries me when he talks about ditching the streetcar as part of this effort saying that streetcar and light rail expansion in the city are undesirable until &#8220;we improve transportation financing regionally and statewide.&#8221; How is he going to accomplish this as mayor? Why not build the streetcar now if we can? Streetcars have been shown to have a transformative effect on the way people move about cities: more people ride them than do equivalent bus routes, and they are cheaper to operate in the long term.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Daniel Franklin</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/08/13/exclusive-offer-2-mile-deep-bore-tunnel-absolutely-free-limited-time-offer-order-now/comment-page-1/#comment-4314</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Daniel Franklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 01:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/?p=1595#comment-4314</guid>
		<description>Sure. I&#039;ll just mention that state&#039;s traffic models that show that most trips that currently use the viaduct would &quot;disappear&quot; with the tunnel due to toll disincentives and the lack of downtown exits.

I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any change of doing nothing with the money. There are plenty of other state highway projects even within Seattle (HOV lanes for example).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure. I&#8217;ll just mention that state&#8217;s traffic models that show that most trips that currently use the viaduct would &#8220;disappear&#8221; with the tunnel due to toll disincentives and the lack of downtown exits.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any change of doing nothing with the money. There are plenty of other state highway projects even within Seattle (HOV lanes for example).</p>
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