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	<title>Comments on: Our Carbon Futures</title>
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	<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/</link>
	<description>&#62; so much wonderful packaged in such a mess</description>
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		<title>By: Joshua Daniel Franklin</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-10020</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Daniel Franklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-10020</guid>
		<description>Those graphs are awesome. What it shows is the extreme need of dense housing in the center city and U-District (stats must not include students, though; it shows campus as empty at night). I also wouldn&#039;t be surprised if that&#039;s pretty old census and BLS data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those graphs are awesome. What it shows is the extreme need of dense housing in the center city and U-District (stats must not include students, though; it shows campus as empty at night). I also wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if that&#8217;s pretty old census and BLS data.</p>
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		<title>By: Comitant</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-9967</link>
		<dc:creator>Comitant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-9967</guid>
		<description>http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/7470/picture1ok.png
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/3012/picture2gr.png

(from http://www.time.com/time/2007/america_numbers/commuting.html)


The point about Copenhagen and Amsterdam is their night time and daytime maps, which would most likely be more equalized than Seattle&#039;s.  Regardless of street layout, their urban functions are marbled.  Our current LightRail+TOD approach by the City/State incents mixed-use but not much else.   


Thank you for not calling me out, David, with what exactly?  If anyone is condescending prick....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/7470/picture1ok.png" rel="nofollow">http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/7470/picture1ok.png</a><br />
<a href="http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/3012/picture2gr.png" rel="nofollow">http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/3012/picture2gr.png</a></p>
<p>(from <a href="http://www.time.com/time/2007/america_numbers/commuting.html)" rel="nofollow">http://www.time.com/time/2007/america_numbers/commuting.html)</a></p>
<p>The point about Copenhagen and Amsterdam is their night time and daytime maps, which would most likely be more equalized than Seattle&#8217;s.  Regardless of street layout, their urban functions are marbled.  Our current LightRail+TOD approach by the City/State incents mixed-use but not much else.   </p>
<p>Thank you for not calling me out, David, with what exactly?  If anyone is condescending prick&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: David in Burien</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-8666</link>
		<dc:creator>David in Burien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 01:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-8666</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad you guys responded to Comitant on the substance.  I was gonna call him/er out for being an anonymous, condescending prick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you guys responded to Comitant on the substance.  I was gonna call him/er out for being an anonymous, condescending prick.</p>
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		<title>By: David Cutler</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-8386</link>
		<dc:creator>David Cutler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-8386</guid>
		<description>James,  links should be fixed.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,  links should be fixed.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-8379</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-8379</guid>
		<description>Comitant,

Copenhagen was in fact planned around a hub-and-spoke model. In 1947 the &quot;finger plan&quot; was adopted wherein 5 fingers were developed radiating out from the city center along S-Train lines. It is very visible on a map as well as from the ground when traveling around Copenhagen. What&#039;s made Copenhagen successful isn&#039;t the topography of the city, but rather the content of the city and the citizens&#039; commitment to changing the city&#039;s culture after the 1970&#039;s energy crisis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comitant,</p>
<p>Copenhagen was in fact planned around a hub-and-spoke model. In 1947 the &#8220;finger plan&#8221; was adopted wherein 5 fingers were developed radiating out from the city center along S-Train lines. It is very visible on a map as well as from the ground when traveling around Copenhagen. What&#8217;s made Copenhagen successful isn&#8217;t the topography of the city, but rather the content of the city and the citizens&#8217; commitment to changing the city&#8217;s culture after the 1970&#8217;s energy crisis.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-8292</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-8292</guid>
		<description>Comitant: On point number 1, I couldn&#039;t disagree more. Since the 80s, there has been a huge increase in business buildings outside of the downtown area. This has happened not only in Seattle, but across the country. This has lead to much more sprawl and much more car use. One of the big attractions of these buildings is that they have their own, cheap parking. Take a job in Factoria, for example and they will provide you with a parking permit. Take the same type of white collar job in downtown Seattle, and they will tell you where to get a bus pass. Maybe Factoria just needs to be self sufficient, perhaps? OK, fair enough. Except that&#039;s not how people live and it&#039;s not how people work. Are you supposed to move to Factoria if you get a job there? Is your wife supposed to quit her job and work in the neighborhood as well? That won&#039;t happen. Instead, we will see one more car on the road (since the buses to Factoria suck if you live in Seattle). Are we supposed to love the Microsoft campus, since it pretty much epitomizes this approach (Microsoft will house you -- seriously, they have their own apartment buildings). Do you really think we would have more sprawl if Microsoft had decided to locate in downtown Seattle? 

One of the reasons we&#039;ve struggled in getting light rail in this city (aside from the obvious limitations of being a mid-size city with tremendous physical obstacles) is that there has been a huge growth in suburban business buildings. If more people worked downtown, or in a few central locations (like the U district) then a rail system would provide a lot more benefit for the miles covered. 

I don&#039;t know about Copenhagen, but it was pretty obvious to me where the center of Amsterdam was when I was there. Seriously, for those who&#039;ve never been there, go on Google maps and take a guess. The city looks like a set of concentric circles to me. The striking thing about Amsterdam, though, is not this design, but how much of it is green. It is rather striking that in the most densely populated country in the most densely populate continent that there is so much green and so few huge buildings. In that regard, you make a very good point. Amsterdam (and the rest of the Netherlands) make for a very good model of development. What makes them special, though, is not their lack of hub and spoke (L. A. has way less of a hub than Amsterdam or New York) but their preservation of green space in the city and the mix of mid-size development. 

In many ways, that is the obvious solution to the problem: preserve green space and watch the density increase. How it increases will be very interesting to watch. While plenty of folks will love to see the density of the city increase, just as many (myself included) would love to see the suburbs actually be nice places to live. There are lots of people who would love to live on a small house with a small lot (think San Francisco) but really don&#039;t have that option (unless they spend big bucks on a skinny city house). It would be nice if the suburbs looked like that. Actually, it would be nice if the suburbs had houses like most of Seattle&#039;s houses. If they did, there would be a lot less sprawl and lot more affordable housing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comitant: On point number 1, I couldn&#8217;t disagree more. Since the 80s, there has been a huge increase in business buildings outside of the downtown area. This has happened not only in Seattle, but across the country. This has lead to much more sprawl and much more car use. One of the big attractions of these buildings is that they have their own, cheap parking. Take a job in Factoria, for example and they will provide you with a parking permit. Take the same type of white collar job in downtown Seattle, and they will tell you where to get a bus pass. Maybe Factoria just needs to be self sufficient, perhaps? OK, fair enough. Except that&#8217;s not how people live and it&#8217;s not how people work. Are you supposed to move to Factoria if you get a job there? Is your wife supposed to quit her job and work in the neighborhood as well? That won&#8217;t happen. Instead, we will see one more car on the road (since the buses to Factoria suck if you live in Seattle). Are we supposed to love the Microsoft campus, since it pretty much epitomizes this approach (Microsoft will house you &#8212; seriously, they have their own apartment buildings). Do you really think we would have more sprawl if Microsoft had decided to locate in downtown Seattle? </p>
<p>One of the reasons we&#8217;ve struggled in getting light rail in this city (aside from the obvious limitations of being a mid-size city with tremendous physical obstacles) is that there has been a huge growth in suburban business buildings. If more people worked downtown, or in a few central locations (like the U district) then a rail system would provide a lot more benefit for the miles covered. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about Copenhagen, but it was pretty obvious to me where the center of Amsterdam was when I was there. Seriously, for those who&#8217;ve never been there, go on Google maps and take a guess. The city looks like a set of concentric circles to me. The striking thing about Amsterdam, though, is not this design, but how much of it is green. It is rather striking that in the most densely populated country in the most densely populate continent that there is so much green and so few huge buildings. In that regard, you make a very good point. Amsterdam (and the rest of the Netherlands) make for a very good model of development. What makes them special, though, is not their lack of hub and spoke (L. A. has way less of a hub than Amsterdam or New York) but their preservation of green space in the city and the mix of mid-size development. </p>
<p>In many ways, that is the obvious solution to the problem: preserve green space and watch the density increase. How it increases will be very interesting to watch. While plenty of folks will love to see the density of the city increase, just as many (myself included) would love to see the suburbs actually be nice places to live. There are lots of people who would love to live on a small house with a small lot (think San Francisco) but really don&#8217;t have that option (unless they spend big bucks on a skinny city house). It would be nice if the suburbs looked like that. Actually, it would be nice if the suburbs had houses like most of Seattle&#8217;s houses. If they did, there would be a lot less sprawl and lot more affordable housing.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-8249</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-8249</guid>
		<description>Good post, David, but you&#039;ve got a few dead links in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, David, but you&#8217;ve got a few dead links in it.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Daniel Franklin</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-8179</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Daniel Franklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-8179</guid>
		<description>While Seattle has a mild case of hub and spoke disease, jobs in the region are pretty strongly multi-center. That was one reason we scored badly on the poorly done job sprawl study (in their definition, the 40,000 people who work in the U-District are &quot;too far from downtown&quot;). 

I agree that the current light rail stations are not where the jobs are, but it&#039;s pretty hard to argue that future stations at Husky Stadium, Northgate, and Bellevue are for bedroom communities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While Seattle has a mild case of hub and spoke disease, jobs in the region are pretty strongly multi-center. That was one reason we scored badly on the poorly done job sprawl study (in their definition, the 40,000 people who work in the U-District are &#8220;too far from downtown&#8221;). </p>
<p>I agree that the current light rail stations are not where the jobs are, but it&#8217;s pretty hard to argue that future stations at Husky Stadium, Northgate, and Bellevue are for bedroom communities.</p>
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		<title>By: John of Humdinger</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-8153</link>
		<dc:creator>John of Humdinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-8153</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re concerned about preserving Homo Sapiens&#039; life,
why vote for someone who supports partial birth abortions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re concerned about preserving Homo Sapiens&#8217; life,<br />
why vote for someone who supports partial birth abortions?</p>
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		<title>By: Comitant</title>
		<link>http://hugeasscity.com/2009/09/09/our-carbon-futures/comment-page-1/#comment-8095</link>
		<dc:creator>Comitant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 08:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugeasscity.com/?p=2065#comment-8095</guid>
		<description>You get a star for understanding Hank.  Or maybe you&#039;re ironically complimenting?  Now go back to your *exciting* Maxim. 

To answer the question posed in the last paragraph:
1)Urban Model -&gt; 2)Zoning -&gt; 3)Individual buildings


1) Seattle, like almost every American city, suffers in some way from the hub and spoke model.  Everyone works in the center and goes to sleep elsewhere (and that really doesn&#039;t matter as long as you can get there).  As it stands, our current light rail model is another fat spoke connecting new bedroom communities to the almighty Downtown. When you consider a place like Amsterdam or Copenhagen, it&#039;s hard to determine what exactly is the downtown.  Instead of one center, many smaller centers are networked together with rail and bus.  Density is not just about mixed-use plopped next to a bus station.  It is the formation of neighborhoods that are self sufficient in business, commerce, residence, culture, and maintenance. The hub and spoke, as it is in Seattle, does not support it.  


2) In comparison to Amsterdam and Copenhagen, Seattle&#039;s zoning looks like the board game Candyland. Our setbacks and envelope limitations are some Frankenstein of country living individualism and metropolitan living.  Just look at the Seattle Times article mentioned here a few weeks ago about the Mother-In-Law zoning proposition.  It&#039;s a big deal to have your neighbor&#039;s wall on your property, and it&#039;s an unthinkable big deal to actually share a party wall in your, *gasp*, private house.  Borneo Sporenberg is a good example of energy and land efficiency, but our landscape fetish does not support it.  We insist on having squarish houses and small window on the sides looking down on fences and shrubs.  Like Michael McGinn said last week on KUOW&#039;s Weekday, there are a lot of great housing solutions available that are deemed off-the-wall by our land use codes.  



3) When actually talking about the environmental impact of a building, both in manufacturing and energy use, it&#039;s hard to determine what is what times what.  Is a house that has a lower R value but heats all its water via the roof more or less energy &quot;conscious&quot;?  Or the house that has the big windows that loose the precious R but a thermal mass floor and walls that collect sun heat?  These things are hard to quantify for bureaucracies because often the ecological benefits are fuzzy, long term, or just hard to quantify.  


We need a mayor who is brave enough to stick it to the NIMBYers, reform our zoning/land use codes, and require some real givebacks from developers.  Then we can start actually experimenting with new dense housing solutions that don&#039;t look like the Fischer Price condos+town houses that popped up in the last decade.  And maybe in the future we&#039;ll take the step of deconstructing Downtown and start putting up real office space in, say, oh Beacon Hill anyone?  Or how about next to the new Capitol Hill station in 2016?  

Solution for now: Vote Mike Mcginn</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You get a star for understanding Hank.  Or maybe you&#8217;re ironically complimenting?  Now go back to your *exciting* Maxim. </p>
<p>To answer the question posed in the last paragraph:<br />
1)Urban Model -&gt; 2)Zoning -&gt; 3)Individual buildings</p>
<p>1) Seattle, like almost every American city, suffers in some way from the hub and spoke model.  Everyone works in the center and goes to sleep elsewhere (and that really doesn&#8217;t matter as long as you can get there).  As it stands, our current light rail model is another fat spoke connecting new bedroom communities to the almighty Downtown. When you consider a place like Amsterdam or Copenhagen, it&#8217;s hard to determine what exactly is the downtown.  Instead of one center, many smaller centers are networked together with rail and bus.  Density is not just about mixed-use plopped next to a bus station.  It is the formation of neighborhoods that are self sufficient in business, commerce, residence, culture, and maintenance. The hub and spoke, as it is in Seattle, does not support it.  </p>
<p>2) In comparison to Amsterdam and Copenhagen, Seattle&#8217;s zoning looks like the board game Candyland. Our setbacks and envelope limitations are some Frankenstein of country living individualism and metropolitan living.  Just look at the Seattle Times article mentioned here a few weeks ago about the Mother-In-Law zoning proposition.  It&#8217;s a big deal to have your neighbor&#8217;s wall on your property, and it&#8217;s an unthinkable big deal to actually share a party wall in your, *gasp*, private house.  Borneo Sporenberg is a good example of energy and land efficiency, but our landscape fetish does not support it.  We insist on having squarish houses and small window on the sides looking down on fences and shrubs.  Like Michael McGinn said last week on KUOW&#8217;s Weekday, there are a lot of great housing solutions available that are deemed off-the-wall by our land use codes.  </p>
<p>3) When actually talking about the environmental impact of a building, both in manufacturing and energy use, it&#8217;s hard to determine what is what times what.  Is a house that has a lower R value but heats all its water via the roof more or less energy &#8220;conscious&#8221;?  Or the house that has the big windows that loose the precious R but a thermal mass floor and walls that collect sun heat?  These things are hard to quantify for bureaucracies because often the ecological benefits are fuzzy, long term, or just hard to quantify.  </p>
<p>We need a mayor who is brave enough to stick it to the NIMBYers, reform our zoning/land use codes, and require some real givebacks from developers.  Then we can start actually experimenting with new dense housing solutions that don&#8217;t look like the Fischer Price condos+town houses that popped up in the last decade.  And maybe in the future we&#8217;ll take the step of deconstructing Downtown and start putting up real office space in, say, oh Beacon Hill anyone?  Or how about next to the new Capitol Hill station in 2016?  </p>
<p>Solution for now: Vote Mike Mcginn</p>
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